Author: Paul

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The Glitter Girls

Frying Pan at Abilene on 051825
Frying Pan at Abilene on 051825

We were both sitting at our computers last night when we remembered Frying Pan was playing at Abilene. We were out the door in minutes but we had already missed Big Roy, the opening band. Had it not been for the weather this show would have been held outdoors. I would have preferred that. The club can be like walking into a speaker cabinet. I hadn’t even pushed my ear plugs in fully when my watch was warning about exposure to levels above 100 db. The two guitars sounded great, each playing rhythm and lead, sometimes at the same time but always sounding distinctly different. My brother, Tim, was standing next to us. We mouthed, “hello.” I tried to order a beer. I tried a few times and the waitress, sporting one of the biggest beehives I’ve seen since leaving Indiana, had me write my order on a piece of paper.

My order at Abilene
My order at Abilene

We couldn’t hear any of the lyrics so we asked Pat what he was singing about. He told he did one sort of political song about “the beast” and another about a trip he took out west. One was about the “glitter girls” he hung around with in high school. I wish the vocals had been audible. Pat said “you could hear the vocals really good in the monitors.” Maybe we should have hopped on stage with the band.

My “45s2go” playlist (Apple) (Spotify) has gotten bigger. Funny thing is, these are clean files and the songs don’t sound nearly as good as they do on vinyl.

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Primordial Underside

Window on Union Street in Rochester
Window on Union Street in Rochester

I parked in front of this window on my way to a yearly dermatologist appointment. I like being his first patient of the day and this wind looked especially nice in the early morning light. Do I have skin cancer yet? He didn’t see any.

Our neighbor, Rick, is out front on his unicycle. He has a clown gig at the harbor this weekend and he’s warming up. He told us he’s having trouble with his “quick mount,” getting up on the bike from a standstill. At seventy-five with a knee replacement I would say he’s doing great. We played horseshoes for the first time this year and we both fell apart midway in the third round. It was tied with a match apiece and we were neck and neck to the last throw but it took forever to get there.

Local strawberries are on the shelves. The season lasts only a few weeks so it needs to be pounced upon. We picked up three quarts at the Brighton Farmers Market and heard Debby Kendrick Project at the same time. They sounded great in the open air. We bought some exotic mushrooms (the proprietor called our attention to the primordial underside) and some locally made mushroom pasta as well. It made a perfect dinner.

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Brian And Sly

Margaret Explosion soundcheck at Highland Bowl June 2025. Peggi Fournier, Bernie Heveron, Ken Frank and Jack Schaefer. The drummer took the photo.
Margaret Explosion soundcheck at Highland Bowl June 2025. Peggi Fournier, Bernie Heveron, Ken Frank and Jack Schaefer. The drummer took the photo.

We played in the Highland Bowl over the weekend. Maeve reminded us we had played here with her band back in the early eighties. We saw her (and everyone else from our neighborhood) at the demonstration. I recorded the show but the breeze, which was hardly noticeable, wrecked havoc on the mics. Now I remember why that furry thing came with the recorder.

Margaret Explosion’s two half-hour sets were sandwiched between three different poets, each equally engaging. Ralph Black is a Professor Emeritus at Brockport, Kathy Engel is a Professor at NYU and Patricia Spears Jones is the current New York State Poet Laureate. She read a poem about Sly Stone, so timely after his death I thought for sure she had just written it, but I noticed she was reading from one of her books. I took note of the cover. A few pieces later she read one about James Brown that had us applauding. It was from a different book. After the show I stood in line to buy one of her books. I told her I couldn’t decide whether to get the one with the James Brown piece or the one with the Sly piece. She said “buy them both.” I bought bought one and Bernie, who played guitar with us, bought the other. We plan to swap.

We listened to our Beach Boys singles over the weekend. Still have thirteen of them, some with Peggi’s teenage signature on them. And we finished that stack with one album track, “Surf’s Up.” They were so good. I have a shorter stack of Sly singles, about ten, on deck for tonight. Long live Brian and Sly.

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No Kings On Kings Highway

"No King" sign at Irondequoit "No Kings" protest
“No King” sign at Irondequoit “No Kings” protest

Last month’s big protest at Cobb’s Hill was reaffirming. But it was someone’s brilliant stroke to organize yesterday’s demonstrations in so many parts of the city, in so many cities. Of course it made attending convenient and surely brought out more people. The local sites included “Lakeshore at Durand Eastman.” That’s more than a mile long. Where, we wondered?

The beginning of a mile of "No Kings" protesters - Zoo Road and Lakeshore Boulevard
The beginning of a mile of “No Kings” protesters – Zoo Road and Lakeshore Boulevard

We walked from our house through the park (with others) to the lake. We could hear the cars honking and the crowd cheering. The crowd lined Lakeshore Boulevard from Zoo Road to Rock Beach Road. Someone gave us a small upside down flag. “It’s a distress signal,” they said. Most people had homemade signs, not the mass produced signs you see at a Trump rally. We saw many of our neighbors. I told the women holding this sign that I liked her graphics. We came home with the flags. I feel like we are starting to reclaim it.

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Music To Write Poetry To

Margaret Explosion performs at Writers and Books Poetry Festival 2025 in Highland Bowl
Margaret Explosion performs at Writers and Books Poetry Festival 2025 in Highland Bowl

A few years back Frank DeBlase of City Newspaper wrote: “Margaret Explosion’s music paints pictures in my head non stop.” For Pete Monacelli our music puts words on paper. He sends us his verse after each gig. Here is something he wrote a few weeks back:

Start and stop
Feet on the ground
Song of creation
Floating atoms
Vast fires
Change, Change, Change

Open and close
Not terminal
universal
evolving
Feet on the ground
Change, Change, Change

A black hole
Consuming
Musical notes
To infinity
Feet on the ground
Change, Change, Change

Stir the water
Healing comes
Super nova
Explosion
New beginnings
Change, Change, Chang

Awake
Alive and well
Feet on the ground
Rest
Silence
Change, Change, Change

Desert
Between two rivers
Birth
And death
And birth
Change, Change, Change

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Free Speech

Wall under South Avenue bridge
Wall under South Avenue bridge

The crews who go around the world covering up graffitti can’t seem to settle on the right Pantone color for the job. And we are all the richer for that. I love these abstracts. Here’s a few recent captures – one two

Peggi and I were shopping at Wegmans yesterday when a man, somewhere near our age, wheeled by in one of those electric shopping carts. We heard him coming. He was chanting, in a sing-song manner, “Trump is a nazi” over and over again. We first saw him in the produce department and then over by the yogurt. As we headed up to the check-out we crossed paths again. Same song, over and over again.

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Johnny Walker

John Robert Jewelers truck, Sea Breeze
John Robert Jewelers truck, Sea Breeze

I spotted this truck parked by the amusement park in Sea Breeze. I had my España national team jersey on, we walked through the woods and down Culver to Shamrock Jack’s to watch the Nation’s League final with Spain and Portugal. The pre-game was on one of the seven big TVs so we sat right in front of it at the end of the bar.

There was an older couple next to us. We gathered their daughter was sitting next to them and they were having a good time. The guy said something about his birthday and Peggi and I wished him a happy one. I asked if it was a big one, Peggi and I had just celebrated one, and he said, “Yeah, guess how old I am.” I can’t tell anymore and I didn’t want to insult him so I went with 65, thinking he look older than us but was probably younger. “Guess again he said. “Seventy five?” “Higher,” the guy said. “Eighty?” He settled on 83. We clinked glasses again. The bartender said, “Everyone I know who drinks Johnny Walker lives into their eighties.”

The game was pretty good, tied 2-2 by the 40 year old Ronaldo on the hour mark, but it was frustrating for me. Spain had most of the possession but looked like they were scrambling. They clearly had a hard time moving the ball through the center and repeatedly lost the ball there. I was expecting magic. Professional coverage here.

There’s Notre Dame posters and gear all around the bar, the Irish connection, and they are the local hub for the Premier League’s Aston Villa fans but we were the only ones watching the Spain game. More family members showed up to meet the people next to us and they moved to a table. Another couple sat down minutes later. They were clearly older than us and our ears perked up when the woman mentioned something about Ezra Klein. They took forever to decide what they wanted to drink and the guy finally settled on an Amstel Light. It was served in a proper glass with the Amstel logo.

The sound was off on the tv so our squeals appeared out of context. The new couple asked me if I had played soccer. “A long time ago,” I said. They told us someone had given them a gift certificate to nearby restaurant and they went to Margies down on the lake but they were charging admission because there was a band so they were “bar hoping” before dinner. They told us they gone out to hear their son’s band, The Rhino Chasers, a surf band, the night before. We told them we are in a band as well and they acted like they wanted to hear us. We told them we are playing Friday at the Highland Bowl a whole lot of poets, Writers & Books Poetry Festival.

We each managed to nurse a beer the whole 90 minute match but we split a third for stoppage time. The match went the duration and Spain lost in shoot outs. We went home and played music in the basement.

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Mike Mohawk

Display case in Barrington Street School
Display case in Barrington Street School

Corrine Atias went to grade school here on the Barrington Street in the Park Avenue area. We picked up our programs for the annual Landmark Society House & Garden tour in the school and walked by the apartment on Dartmouth where we lived when we first moved here in the mid seventies. It is now a hideous green. Our first stop was a Claude Bragdon house on the corner of Dartmouth and Park. There was a beautiful painting of the original owners hanging in the stairwell. We were told the small portrait in the woman’s hand was of her first husband who died in a dual. Our favorite house on the tour was a Bungalow style house at 417 Westminster. A recessed, center entrance under a pergola opens to a light filled living room as wide as the large house. The house was featured in a book. The backyard garden with a weeping Atlas Cedar and waterfall was heavenly.

Since we don’t subscribe to Fox Sports we have to find a spot to watch the international final between Spain and Portugal tomorrow. We’re thinking maybe nearby Shamrock Jack’s or Sheffield if they are open at three in the afternoon. We watched Spain beat France 5-4 in Magpie on Park Avenue with Scott and guy named Bob who told us he watched a lot of Rugby. He didn’t have to tell us that. He looked exactly like a rugby player. We were the only ones in there except for the bartender and a guy we used to call “Mike Mohawk” back in the Scorgie’s days. Scott gave us a couple of his books. Peggi is anxious to dive into the one on Detroit.

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Deep Dives

City of Rochester aerial photo of Kodak and Genesee River
City of Rochester aerial photo of Kodak and Genesee River

There was a Whole Earth like moment when the promise of the internet first became apparent. Creative types could have a website with an address on the World Wide Web. I’m not sure what happened. Peggi might know. She’s been reading “Careless People.” Maybe we were doomed to scroll endlessly.

My favorite Rochester website is Gonechester. We think of our city as always having been the way it is. Do you recognize anything in the photo above other than Kodak Office building? Our city is continually reshaping itself. Geoffrey Zeiner’s posts uncover the rich past of our city. My grandparents both worked at local shoe factories. This history shaped us.

A Heckel Pat. Turn Shank advertising paperweight.

The Gonechester site pulls together sources to tell stories about people and places that once were part of Rochester, NY, but now are no longer with us. Photographs, newspaper articles, and primary documents are all included to paint a picture of these lost locations, and the people who lived and worked in them. If deep diving on a well researched website with dreamy photos is not your thing Geoffrey is giving a talk, entitled ”A Walk Through a Disappeared Downtown,” at the Chili Public Library, Thursday, June 12th, at 6:30 PM. He has a video about the History of Rochester’s Main Street Bridge.

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Do Not Disturb

“Ecstasy Club”by Margaret Explosion from 2024 release “Field Recordings”

We had fun putting this one together. The footage is about twenty years old, shot in our basement for a song called “Super Slinky” from our “Live Dive” cd. We never got around to doing that video but thought it would fit “Ecstasy Club,” a rambunctious song from our newest cd, “Field Recordings.” The kids, some of our nieces and nephews, are all grown now. Margaret Explosion is still here. We play Wednesday at the Little.

I had never seen the Bop Shop as crowded as it was yesterday. I asked Tom Kohn if it had ever been this crowded and he said it was for the grand opening. The occasion was a book release for “Richard Manual: His Life and Music, from the Hawks and Bob Dylan to The Band” by Stephen Lewis, a local boy. Tom’s wife, Jann, was the editor. Tom said the pages were on their kitchen table for a year and a half.

Karen Mahoney’s husband works behind the counter at the Bop Shop and Bob Mahoney was there for the event. They both told slightly different stories about John Gilmore repeatedly calling our friend, Brad, and not getting any answer, then going there, spotting his car, banging on the door and not reaching Brad. Worried, they called the cops. Four cars responded. To do a so-called “Welfare Check” they needed to call all the local hospitals. No one by named Fox had been admitted so they jimmied the back door. According to Kim, Brad was sitting in his chair with the headphones on, listening to Captain Beefheart. He had turned his phone off because he didn’t want to be disturbed. According to Bob, Brad was listening to Frank Zappa. I like Kim’s version better.

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Volume XXII Available Now

2 page spread from Paul Dodd "Brief History of the World" Volume XXII
2 page spread from “Brief History of the World” Volume XXII

The days are numbered for this long running project. I delivered newspapers for five years back when a kid could work without breaking the law. I loved the daily headlines (redundant today), the sensational photos, the cracker-jack reporting and opinionated columnists but most of all I like the pictures. Miraculously we still get daily delivery of the local paper and the NYT but I realize newspapers are a thing of the past.

2 page spread from Paul Dodd "Brief History of the World" Volume XXII
2 page spread from Paul Dodd “Brief History of the World” Volume XXII

For twenty five years or so I’ve cut pictures out. Not every day, sometimes weeks go by before I find myself staring at one long enough to think, “I’ll just cut it out. I keep them in a little box and when the box gets full I arrange them in pairs. Not all find a mate so they just stay in the box. I tape the pictures on three hole punched card stock and I’ve filled twenty three binders with the spreads – A “Brief History of the World.”

2 page spread from Paul Dodd "Brief History of the World" Volume XXII
2 page spread from Paul Dodd “Brief History of the World” Volume XXII

I have just posted “Brief History of the World” Volume XXII. CLICK HERE to download the free eBook.

This book is available here in the generic ePub format. On Mac the download should should open in your Books app. To read (ePub format) on a PC, you’ll need to use a third-party reader compatible with the ePub format. Popular options include Adobe Digital Editions, Calibre, or FB Reader. You can also use Microsoft Edge

I have a page on PopWars where 36 other “Artists Books” are available as free downloadable eBooks.

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Barking At The Dog

Touliouse-Lautrec "Touc, Seated on aTable" Hammer Museum
Touliouse-Lautrec “Touc, Seated on aTable” Hammer Museum

We were out early on Memorial Day, maybe 7:30, and there was hardly anyone in the park but the dog walkers. It was a gorgeous day as the few people we passed acknowledged. We walked along the beach and saw only one sailboat which seemed odd until we realized there was no wind. As we walked up Zoo Road a black car came up behind us, traveling too fast for the park but also too close to us. We saw the owner get out of the car. He had a dog, on a leash, thank god, and he headed up the road ahead of us. I looked at the sticker on his car, a blue American flag with the words, “Support Your Sheriff” below it.

We walk faster than most people, for now, so of course we caught up to him. We were about ten feet behind him when he started yelling, barking really, at his dog. “No! ” he shouted as he yanked the leash around the dog’s neck. The dog looked like a Rottweiler and I was thinking about turning around. There was an article in our paper yesterday about a pit bull who killed his owner.

As we got closer to the guy the dog looked our way again. I didn’t want to look at the owner. He scolded his dog for turning our way and said, “I’ll teach you military style” as he yanked the dog’s leash. We got ahead of them and his phone rang. We heard him telling someone he was in the park and “had to hang up before the dog destroys someone.”

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Mister Matisse

Henri Matisse “Bas Relief” 1909 - 1930 in MoMA Sculpture Garden New York City
Henri Matisse “Bas Relief” 1909 – 1930 in MoMA Sculpture Garden New York City

The sculpture garden on UCLA’s campus is one of the wonders of the world. I’m so happy Peggi’s sister took us over there when we were in LA. I posted a photo of these Matisse marvels while we were there and remarked how different the light made the sculptures look and feel. Now that I’m back home I called up the photo I took in New York to compare.

Henri Matisse “Bas Relief” 1909 - 1930 in UCLA Sculpture Garden in Los Angeles
Henri Matisse “Bas Relief” 1909 – 1930 in UCLA Sculpture Garden in Los Angeles
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Agritourism

Farm land in midwest as seen from airplane
Farm land in the Midwest as seen from airplane

I took this photo last month as we flew east into Chicago. It is a nice compliment to the photo I took of our garden in my last post. It also makes a good abstract. We put a second row of arugula in and weeded the spot where we will put the tomato plants on Tuesday. Unusually late but it has been unusually cool. Our garden is in our neighbors’ yard. It used to be their tennis court when they were younger. They also have a fish pond that a heron found this spring. They suspected as much because the fish have all been clustered in the center under a few plants, afraid to come out. Their suspicions were confirmed when they came out to pick up the mail and saw the heron standing in their pond.

The end of Hoffman was especially alive with bird activity today. Our Merlin app identified Red-winged Blackbird, Song Sparrow, Northern Flicker, American Robin, Eastern Wood-Pewee, Gray Catbird, Tufted Titmouse, American Goldfinch, Yellow Warbler, Carolina Wren and a Tennessee Warbler in less than a minute. The neighbors who live in the last house told us they had a pileated woodpecker crash into their window. It shattered the first of a double pane glass, temporarily knocked itself out but got up and flew away.

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“Climate Crud”

Peggi planting collards and Kale
Peggi planting collards and Kale
"The government will no longer track major sources of greenhouse gases, data that has been used to measure the scale and identify sources of the problem for the past 15 years. 

"We're not doing that climate change, you know, crud, any-more." Agriculture Secretary Brooke Rollins told Fox Business on May 8. 

By getting rid of data, the administration is trying to halt the national discussion about how to deal with global warming, said Daniel Swain, a climate scientist"

I copied that chunk from a recent article in the Democrat & Chronicle. Aren’t we lucky to still have a daily newspaper in Rochester? I’m not sure that we are. I had not heard the word “crud” since the Mad Magazine days.

Everybody’s complaining about all the rain we have had. Our garden loves it. We have a few varieties, in a few stages, of lettuce, arugula and spinach. I took this photo after picking two bags full and Peggi, at the other end of the garden, is putting in the collards and kale plants, that we started indoors, in the earth. We would normally have our tomatoes and peppers in by now but we still have a slight possibility of a frost so we’ll wait until Monday.

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Mystery

Page 21 of "Underground Designers Handbook" by Leo Dodd 1968
Page 21 of “Underground Designers Handbook” by Leo Dodd 1968

It is not exactly logical, “Mystery is that which gives meaning,” but it does free the mind.

Somewhere in the mid-sixties the nine of us piled into the family station wagon and drove south to Mt. Savior Monastery in Elmira. I assume my father had made some sort of arrangement before we stopped in, I was just going along for the ride and probably would rather have stayed home with my friends. I remember the grounds, the barn, the small church and I remember meeting Brother David. My father was greatly influenced by this mystic monk. This glimpse of monastic life was certainly mysterious to me. On the way home we would stopped at Annis Dairy for ice cream.

In his “Underground Designers Handbook,”Leo Dodd says he attended a lecture series by Brother David and was exposed to “the beauty and clarity of his thought, how common religious terms like awareness, encounter and commitment, in David’s hands, took on a special arrangement with stunning impact. Without this exposure, to how these terms interplay with God, man and mystery this handbook would not exist.”

Brother David Steindl-Rast is a Benedictine monk, author, and interfaith scholar best known for his teachings on gratefulness. He was born in Austria in 1926. He was greatly influenced by Daisetz Teitaro Suzuki’s book, “The Training of the Zen Buddhist Monk,” and the two protested the Viet Nam war together. 98 years old now, he is still a prominent voice bridging contemplative Christian traditions with Buddhism. He has a Ted Talk.

My father was 41 in 1968 when he created his “Underground Designers Handbook.” My parents were unhappy with the conservative tenants of Catholicism and along with a former priest and a small group of like-minded liberals they went about forming their own church, not a physical building but a community. In the formative stages the group would meet at our house and conversation mixed with cigarette smoke wafted upstairs to our bedrooms.

Page 45 of "Underground Designers Handbook" by Leo Dodd 1968
Page 45 of “Underground Designers Handbook” by Leo Dodd 1968

Leo’s artwork, in colored pencils and ink, is a joy to look at. Trained as a mechanical engineer he worked as a design engineer for Eastman Kodak. He was able to reduce concepts to graphic symbols. And if it got complicated he would create a matrix. He used to to say he couldn’t talk without a pencil. I don’t think he could think without one. He retired early but continued working as a consultant. I was lucky to have been on jobs with Leo while creating slideshows for high-tech companies under insane deadlines. This was fun for him. The concepts expressed in his Underground Designers Handbook remain mysterious to me but mystery is that which gives meaning.

Front cover of "Underground Designers Handbook" by Leo Dodd 1968
Front cover of “Underground Designers Handbook” by Leo Dodd 1968

CLICK HERE to download the free book.

Leo’s book is available here in the generic ePub format. On Mac the download should should open in your Books app. To read Apple Books (ePub format) on a PC, you’ll need to use a third-party reader compatible with the ePub format. Popular options include Adobe Digital Editions, Calibre, or FB Reader. You can also use Microsoft Edge. 

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Masterstroke

Wall in Hauser Wirth LA
Wall in Hauser Wirth LA

One hundred years ago the downtown Los Angeles space now occupied by Hauser Wirth was home to the Globe Grain and Milling Company. Before I learned the history I was guessing it was once a convent or monastery. There is an open air herb and vegetable garden in a central courtyard and a restaurant next to it. Some of the galleries are large and light filled. Others, like the space where David Hammons’ ‘Concerto in Black and Blue’ is installed, are completely dark.

Someone on Hauser Wirth’s staff had the foresight to preserve the chunk of industrial history (“ruin porn”) in the photo above. The blue with black stripe section on the right is part of a Mary Heilmann installation. And they added the plant, of course, but to recognize the beauty in the crumbling and long neglected chunk of wall was a masterstroke.

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What Is It All About?

Prom photo at The Getty in Los Angeles
Prom photo at The Getty in Los Angeles

I thought of Jason Wilder (and the stories he tells with his found photos) when I glommed onto a prom shoot at The Getty in LA.

I have the slimmed-down, free version of ChatGPT and I’ve been slowly incorporating it in my life for simple queries. As I prepared a new post here I asked ChatGPT, “What is www.popwars.com all about?” It came back with the following and now I’m wondering, do I put quotes around a ChatGPT return when I site it? Rather than asking ChatGPT I think I’ll ask my friend, Rich, an intellectual property expert.

“PopWars (www.popwars.com) is a personal blog and multimedia journal curated by artist and musician Paul Dodd, based in Rochester, New York. The site offers a rich tapestry of reflections on art, music, travel, and everyday life, blending personal anecdotes with cultural commentary.

Art & Photography: Paul Dodd shares his artistic endeavors, including paintings, collages, and photography. The blog features various art projects, such as the “Mex Mural Project” and “Subterranean Surrogates,” showcasing his creative process and exhibitions.

Music & Bands: A significant portion of PopWars is dedicated to music. Paul documents performances and recordings of his band, Margaret Explosion, an experimental jazz group known for its improvisational style. The site includes concert posters, music releases, and reflections on gigs. Additionally, there’s archival material on past bands like Personal Effects and Invisible Idiot, highlighting the local music scene’s evolution.

Blog & Observations: The blog entries are a blend of diary-like posts and cultural observations. Topics range from local events in Rochester to broader musings on art exhibitions, travel experiences, and societal trends. Paul’s writing often intertwines personal narratives with commentary on contemporary issues, providing a unique lens on everyday occurrences.

Family & Archives: PopWars also serves as a digital archive for family history. Paul has digitized and shared old family photographs, preserving memories and offering glimpses into the past. These archives provide context to his personal stories and artistic inspirations.

In essence, PopWars is a multifaceted platform that captures the intersections of personal history, artistic expression, and cultural discourse, all through the eyes of Paul Dodd.”

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I’m Done

Jen on beach with Margarett Explosion t-shirt
Jen on beach with Margarett Explosion t-shirt

Last night’s gig was noteworthy for a few reasons. It was sort of quiet (nearly impossible to compete with the gorgeous weather and Lilac Festival.) Cello player Melissa was unable to make it. Ken bought an acoustic bass on eBay and brought that instead of his double bass. Relatively new neighbors, on the street down below, were there. They told us our band reminded them of music they heard in Morocco. My brother, Tim, was there, a rare sighting. And other than the one big table where the Monacelli’s were holding court. the room seemed to turn over at the break. All new faces to play to. The band always sounds better on quiet nights. People asked for an encore but Jack, bass clarinetist, said, “I’m done.”

At the end of the night Jen (pictured above) came up to say hello. Back in town, she reminded us she used to work in the café twenty years ago. We went down a long rabbit hole with her talking about people who used to work behind the counter.

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